I beg to differ with your idea the looking for novel potential pathogens is too dangerous and shouldn’t be done. The real issue, both in China AND in the US is inappropriate safety precautions. Some of this is the result of sloppiness (people can be in too much of a hurry to study and report the next big thing or just plain careless - some of the brightest people I encountered in 50 years of biological science research were some of the messiest in the lab) and saving money (BS-3 and -4 facilities are expensive and waste decontamination and disposal are crucial and expensive). In addition, some of the problem, at least in the US is the result of inadequate upkeep of biosafety facilities (they get old and run down and cost big money for upkeep - the primate facility in LA and Fort Detrick (formerly of bioweapons fame) in MD are two examples where “containment issues” have occurred at least partly from deteriorating infrastructure).
I realize this argument is somewhat akin to “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”, but there is value in pathogen research. However, it has to be done responsibly AND it has to be backed with enough resources to make it as safe as possible. If a government is not willing to pay the price for adequate safety, the work shouldn’t be done.
Since so few people understand the importance of upkeep to building/homes, land/water or even their own bodies for safety and health measures, perhaps it’s best not to go looking for trouble. So few people seem to have good risk assessment skills. While “better safe than sorry” can be applied to either side of the discussion, it make no sense to me to see how many ways death could come to humans just to avoid it. While I know this is a very unpopular thought, IMO, the true reason for disease is to keep species in balance to keep the ecosystem healthy. Fundamentally the health of humans rests on the health of the planet.
Steven, I vehemently disagree with your position regarding collections of wild viruses. It is, in principle, equivalent to saying let’s not study atomic energy or AI because they can lead to the end of humanity (I’d certainly put my bet on one of these than on viruses). While I agree that GoF mutations are not needed (and that the use of BSL-3/4 is critical) burying our heads in the sand won’t make these viruses go away. HIV is a good example.
You are clearly misunderstanding my position. I'm not saying we shouldn't study viruses - we have 100s of known viruses already in the human population, and scientists study those intensively, as they should. I'm saying we shouldn't go out and collect hard-to-find viruses that almost certainly would never reach humans otherwise. Viruses evolve very rapidly, so they would indeed "go away" if we didn't disturb them - or at least they would mutate into something else. It happens all the time. Also I should re-emphasize my other point, that no one has ever demonstrated a benefit (on prevention of an actual human pathogen, not a theoretical future one) from doing this kind of work.
I am pretty sure I understood your position. I still disagree with it. ‘[…] almost certainly would never reach humans ‘ does not have the lever of certainty necessary to leave it be; bats do not stay in caves and humans do not stay out of them. It just takes once… Also, sure, viruses have very high rates of mutation and some strains mutate themselves out of existence (so do we, by the way!). But natural selection would ensure that those that are really good at infecting their hosts hang around. I am not a virologist (I’m an evolutionary genet who studies parasites). Now I am curious. Will ask experimental virologists re. your last point.
This is too much for me to process- the world governments and world media all lied to me about this thing that has changed all our lives, forced us to be injected with a vaccination that is still only approved by 'Emergency Use Authorization', and killed MILLIONS of people around the world?!?!?! WTF!!! mind not only blown but turned to mush - this will force me to completely re-evaluate all that I have been tought and my entire world-view
Soooo you are not aware that the vaccine brought health to first wave covid survivors and prevented covid from becoming a lower respiratory infection (which causes covid to be deadly).
I am a first wave survivor and my 5 year anniversary started this past week. I had the deadly covid infection and came out with 5 years of long covid.
Yale studied how 30% of first wave survivors got much better after the vaccine. 17 million Americans have long covid now. Millions died before the vax. It saved lives and although I believe vax injuries are real, they prevented the deaths of farrr many more millions.
You guys have no idea the party that you missed. You really don’t.
I completely agree with you on this subject. We haven’t even figured out how to save humans from all the viruses, bacteria, parasites, or funguses that science already knows infect us. In part because of the very issue of profitability. Too many people in science, and frankly, every facet of modern life, are in it for the money, position, or power rather than the advancement and wellbeing of humanity and the planet.
Hahaha I’m not vengeful. It was science and who am I to be so presumptuous that I should stand in the way of something that can prevent illness? It was an accident. Not intentional.
My comments weren’t about vengeance, but precaution. I myself have been suffering from chronic illness for 18 years that science can’t get right. If they can’t answer the question we already have, maybe they should be looking for more questions??
I beg to differ with your idea the looking for novel potential pathogens is too dangerous and shouldn’t be done. The real issue, both in China AND in the US is inappropriate safety precautions. Some of this is the result of sloppiness (people can be in too much of a hurry to study and report the next big thing or just plain careless - some of the brightest people I encountered in 50 years of biological science research were some of the messiest in the lab) and saving money (BS-3 and -4 facilities are expensive and waste decontamination and disposal are crucial and expensive). In addition, some of the problem, at least in the US is the result of inadequate upkeep of biosafety facilities (they get old and run down and cost big money for upkeep - the primate facility in LA and Fort Detrick (formerly of bioweapons fame) in MD are two examples where “containment issues” have occurred at least partly from deteriorating infrastructure).
I realize this argument is somewhat akin to “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”, but there is value in pathogen research. However, it has to be done responsibly AND it has to be backed with enough resources to make it as safe as possible. If a government is not willing to pay the price for adequate safety, the work shouldn’t be done.
Since so few people understand the importance of upkeep to building/homes, land/water or even their own bodies for safety and health measures, perhaps it’s best not to go looking for trouble. So few people seem to have good risk assessment skills. While “better safe than sorry” can be applied to either side of the discussion, it make no sense to me to see how many ways death could come to humans just to avoid it. While I know this is a very unpopular thought, IMO, the true reason for disease is to keep species in balance to keep the ecosystem healthy. Fundamentally the health of humans rests on the health of the planet.
Steven, I vehemently disagree with your position regarding collections of wild viruses. It is, in principle, equivalent to saying let’s not study atomic energy or AI because they can lead to the end of humanity (I’d certainly put my bet on one of these than on viruses). While I agree that GoF mutations are not needed (and that the use of BSL-3/4 is critical) burying our heads in the sand won’t make these viruses go away. HIV is a good example.
You are clearly misunderstanding my position. I'm not saying we shouldn't study viruses - we have 100s of known viruses already in the human population, and scientists study those intensively, as they should. I'm saying we shouldn't go out and collect hard-to-find viruses that almost certainly would never reach humans otherwise. Viruses evolve very rapidly, so they would indeed "go away" if we didn't disturb them - or at least they would mutate into something else. It happens all the time. Also I should re-emphasize my other point, that no one has ever demonstrated a benefit (on prevention of an actual human pathogen, not a theoretical future one) from doing this kind of work.
I am pretty sure I understood your position. I still disagree with it. ‘[…] almost certainly would never reach humans ‘ does not have the lever of certainty necessary to leave it be; bats do not stay in caves and humans do not stay out of them. It just takes once… Also, sure, viruses have very high rates of mutation and some strains mutate themselves out of existence (so do we, by the way!). But natural selection would ensure that those that are really good at infecting their hosts hang around. I am not a virologist (I’m an evolutionary genet who studies parasites). Now I am curious. Will ask experimental virologists re. your last point.
This is too much for me to process- the world governments and world media all lied to me about this thing that has changed all our lives, forced us to be injected with a vaccination that is still only approved by 'Emergency Use Authorization', and killed MILLIONS of people around the world?!?!?! WTF!!! mind not only blown but turned to mush - this will force me to completely re-evaluate all that I have been tought and my entire world-view
Nonsense, with some falsehoods.
Soooo you are not aware that the vaccine brought health to first wave covid survivors and prevented covid from becoming a lower respiratory infection (which causes covid to be deadly).
I am a first wave survivor and my 5 year anniversary started this past week. I had the deadly covid infection and came out with 5 years of long covid.
Yale studied how 30% of first wave survivors got much better after the vaccine. 17 million Americans have long covid now. Millions died before the vax. It saved lives and although I believe vax injuries are real, they prevented the deaths of farrr many more millions.
You guys have no idea the party that you missed. You really don’t.
HIV is a good example of what? Of how researchers can claim a natural origin with zero evidence and not be challenged?
You maybe should familiarise yourself with the OPV hypothesis:
https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/maq.12587
I completely agree with you on this subject. We haven’t even figured out how to save humans from all the viruses, bacteria, parasites, or funguses that science already knows infect us. In part because of the very issue of profitability. Too many people in science, and frankly, every facet of modern life, are in it for the money, position, or power rather than the advancement and wellbeing of humanity and the planet.
Wrong rant
I think there needs to be higher safety precautions but I think gain of function needs to continue.
Who am I? A person whose covid infection exactly 5 years ago almost killed her. 8 nights on my deathbed.
I have lots of skin in this game.
Do you not see, by reading this article, that you, and millions more, could have avoided being infected had “gain of function” practices NOT happened?
Hahaha I’m not vengeful. It was science and who am I to be so presumptuous that I should stand in the way of something that can prevent illness? It was an accident. Not intentional.
You know that, of course?
My comments weren’t about vengeance, but precaution. I myself have been suffering from chronic illness for 18 years that science can’t get right. If they can’t answer the question we already have, maybe they should be looking for more questions??